I think gamers as a whole, though specifically those in niche communities, need to take a long and hard look at themselves. We should celebrate the volunteers that create wonderful content for us, generally with no financial gain. Instead, commonly, there are communities that criticize and tear down every little thing they can think of. They even went as far as to doxx the poor woman. We need to be better, and we need to hold these kind of toxic trolls accountable. Especially those of us who are men, we have a responsibility to call out other men who mistreat women in the gaming industry, or gaming in general.
*Edit: I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all. My sentiment is that many of us do not think about this kind of thing, and less are willing to speak out against their friends. We need to be better about that as a whole. I appreciate you as a person if you are already of this mindset.
This isn’t even about gaming, necessarily.
Girls who code are rare. There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female. And a hell of a lot more men.
And I’m in a progressive city in a progressive state.
I work in IT, and I think there is one woman out of 50 employees on my corner of the org chart, and that’s the CIO’s admin assistant.
I’m certain it’s culture, and it doesn’t just go for programming, it goes for almost all of STEM. There was a recent “Stuff You Should Know” episode about toy chemistry sets, and they made it a point to talk about the marketing, and how it always was with boys, for boys. My son, 8 year old kid, says “that’s just wrong! Girls can do all that stuff!”. He’s got it figured out.
As a welder, I’ve had a female coworker ONCE in 15 years working in the industry. My current work doesn’t even have a bathroom for women in the same building as most of the workers. If we did hire a female welder, she’d have to walk across the parking lot to the administration building to actually use a women’s bathroom.
There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female.
Did you get this backwards?
No…but I am being hyperbolic. I definitely interface with more transmasc and nonbinary coders than I do with cisgender female coders. This may also be because, again, cultural reasons.
There certainly are more cisgender female coders, but they are still a minority group by a big amount, and they tend to not draw much attention to themselves.
I was asking because the usual stereotype is than many younger programmers are transfemme.
Welcome to the world of making software for random people, almost certainly made worse by she being a woman.
As others pointed out, most people do appreciate it, but they tend to be silent about it, whilst a small minority are demanding little whinny bitches (in a non-gendered way) who think they’re owed service and some are even trolls.
To those reading this, I suggest when you get something you like for free you at least give some feedback that you liked it and, if the person has some kind of sponsoring scheme going on and you really like it, consider contributing, if only to incentivise more of the same.
Those on the other side are people too and they will appreciate it.
I don’t want you to feel like you’re getting it from all sides but…
I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all
You really gotta ignore those “not all gamers” type of posters. They are literally adding nothing to the conversation. If you are a normal person who doesn’t harass women only, then you should also be a normal person who doesn’t take offense when the community as a whole is criticized.
I always hate these kinds of responses. Let me just go to the extreme, would you say the same if someone made broad negative generalizations about a race?
This comment made my eyes roll out of my head.
To be fair, I assumed people would understand I don’t mean gamers as a whole are like this. I think we all have a responsibility, but I also think the majority of gamers (at least in my age group) are reasonable and show respect.
I see where you’re going with negative generalizations on race, but it’s a completely different ball field. I could probably think of many reasons why, but my main argument is that the general group of “gamers” have never had to face any real existential adversity. No one ever put us in chains, stole our children, etc. on the basis that we play games.
That’s why I said extreme. ;P
I actually had no problem with your initial post. My issue comes with the “if you have to say no all [thing] you’re part of the problem” or similar comments, like the one I responded to.
I have similar feelings about generalizations towards men, women, seniors, children, etc. though you normally only hear it about certain demographics.
It’s usually boils down to either “you know you’re not the problem so why do you dislike being bombarded with posts about you being bad” or “this persons feelings/groups feelings shouldn’t be invalidated, so we are going to invalidate yours instead.”
And again, to be clear, your post wasn’t the problem. You were very clear in what you meant, and followed up with clarification. My issue is that someone came in after the fact and decided to say “fuck those people.”
If you’re a woman keep your drinks covered around men. Responding not all men is pointless even tho I’m a man and I don’t think women should be afraid of me but I get it that they could be and the person that could help change this the most is me and men not women.
And again this is a pointless tangent to the original statement.
As a man who grew up listening their ever perpetually single mom constantly complain about how all men are shit, this comment is the the influence I need to see more of coming from more people who are also men.
I’m constantly trying to be better all the time. I just feel like I don’t know how not to get offended by generalizations that I know don’t apply to me but the more I see other guys say stuff like what you just said, it kinda helps because just seeing them say it makes me want to adopt that mentality and get out if the one that if I fall under a group that receives criticism my feelings are hurt.
You gotta have some more self awareness, man. Stop trying to please those who are always complaining, and just be a good person for the sake of being a good person. Don’t do things to gain favor in the eyes of others.
And if you’re not part of the problem (i.e. you’re not a total piece of shit), then those complaints don’t apply to you anyway. If someone comes up to you and starts blaming you for societal problems simply because you’re a man… that’s someone you don’t wanna be involved with anyway.
I’ve lived by that first paragraph my whole life, I just meant how hard it is to not feel like someone is blaming me personally, or including me when they say a thing about men, just because I’m a man too. And btw, I’ve been not involved with that toxic parent since I was 26 (I’m 32 now)
Like idk how to not to let my feelings be hurt that women would rather encounter a bear than me when I’m trying to be the change I want to see in the world.
I talked to my girlfriejd about it and she said “yeah well you’re not one of those men in the scenario, you have no reason to be offended, you’re one of the good ones” and logically I know shes right, and I appreciated hearing that.
I just gotta see how other men keep from getting offended so easily so I can learn from them
no? how do you even think there’s a parallel there? gamer isn’t a race. there’s nothing essential about gaming. the parallel would be making generalizations about football fans. not a race.
“extreme”
yeah that’s not extreme; it just doesn’t follow. you still have to have an analog. you can’t just say whatever to make an argument in the extreme. that’s just strawmanning.
If you are not part of the problem - it should not offend you, so that generalization is ok, because tbh a lot of us need to stop and think.
Ah yes, the gamer race. I wish I could show this message to Adolph Reed.
Sad you’re being down voted for this. Generalizing a whole group like this is not OK and your point about race is completely valid. People saying things like “ah yes, gamer race” either can’t read or comprehend.
This is literally the same argument being made by “thin blue line” apologists.
You can choose to work as a cop, you can’t really choose what you like to do as a pastime.
I wonder if we could get this guy to work if defeating misogynists online could earn him CoD points or something.
“Dad said mom was a b**** c*** w****? Shit, I’m about to hit prestige.”
Gam*rs need reeducation.
Is gamer a swear word now too?
Always has been 😎
Oh
The only interaction I’ve ever had with authors of mods and such was sending them thanks for their hard work. Sad.
Good for her for making the right decision for her own wellbeing. Too many sad little fucks on the Internet who spend all their time harassing others. Pathetic existence.
“I poured many years of my life into this, just to feel empty. In quitting, I have found my real passion, and have been obsessively working on music. I’ve even released my first ever album, SPIDERWEB PRINCESS, which is filled with my darkest, most genuine feelings from all of my experiences. Nothing I’ve ever done has ever been so meaningful to me. I have so much of myself to share with the world, and I’d much rather be remembered for something I actually enjoy.”
Apparently her new passion is music. SPIDERWEB PRINCESS
Thank you for showing me this, she rocks.
Yeah it’s pretty neat.
This is the sexism that we saw come out during the election. We thought the country was getting better but they were just quietly simmering but connecting online.
I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.
We thought the country was getting better
Who the hell thought the country was getting better? No one I know. This is the same weak basket of deplorables excuse the DNC used for Hillary Clinton’s loss. Because they’ll blame anyone but themselves for their failures.
The Democrats fail because they’ve embraced grinding neoliberalism for an entire generation, because they abandoned the working class long ago. The DNC crushed Sanders—twice—because even a little social safety net, as a treat, is a bridge too far for them. Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.
Fascism isn’t on the rise in the US in particular and the West in general for no reason. The cause is ever-worsening neoliberalism, which is monopoly capitalism in decay. I wrote about this two months ago, but I’ll spare everyone the copypasta and just link to it.
I did, for one
This is where my brain went, too. Even looking at this Lemmy thread. 6 of the 10 most upvoted top level comments (including THE most upvoted) are “not meee”, “not alllll men”, defensive crap or “well she should have just…” and “even men have to deal with it toooo” like damn. We ARE fucked.
It’s almost like people ignore men’s issues and scapegoat them at every opportunity for the sake of women.
If men had said they picked the bear it would have been framed as misogyny.
Case in point. Some dude just got murdered by the cops cuz the home invader was a woman and the cops saw a man fighting a woman and shot the man by default.
Men will never ever get the benefit of the doubt, but when we try to demand it we are just crybabies.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.
A rather astute observation found in an unlikely place, and one of my favorite move lines of all times.
Stuff like this is why I don’t tell people I game. The Gamer Stink is real and I don’t want to be guilty by association. Seriously, go touch grass. The things that you’re denigrating someone else for are pixels and code on a computer. Find some way to not be garbage humans.
Her music is interesting. Hope she ends up happier
I don’t understand people who “demand” things from volunteers. Open source devs, modders, and still recently content creators are/were treated like public service workers, by some.
Imagine if we went around treating artists as if they were obligated to please each of us individually with their every piece? I’m very happy to see this attitude improve with streaming and youtube, where creators are more and more met with care and support when they have to step away for a bit or retire entirely.
It sadly seems like this modder was eventually putting in tremendous effort, in a vain attempt to please absolutely everyone using her mods. But that isn’t a good reason to work for free.
Any work I do for free, is something I do because I want to, but this modder explicitly says she did work she didn’t want to do in order to please fans. And I can’t help but ask, why? (I know why, but someone should have cared enough to show her she is allowed to just say no, and do whatever she prefers.)
The blurb about her doing music is how you’re SUPPOSED to feel doing something for fun. I’m happy that she found her way to something that makes her feel that way.
People do this with artists too. Especially the moment you offer anything in the way of free commissions for a specific community and such.
Many forums had gfx threads, where members who enjoy putting together banners and such would offer to make something for those who asked. A good friend of mine ran one in a certain game’s forum for a while and the absolute entitlement in which some of those people acted (in regards to speed and nitpicking about minor things) was disgusting. It was maybe 1 in 25 people but it soured the whole thing for her, understandably so. The moment you give people a little finger wrt their requests, one of those people will take the whole hand. The same likely applies to modding.
And I’m sure being a woman doing gaming stuff isn’t helping because there’s way too much sexism in gaming culture, even though there are also a lot of subcommunities that are super welcoming to everyone.
it doesnt even have to be a mod, just free. See what happened with AetherSX2(android ps2 emulator) and how a bunch of people kept pestering a dev till he basiclaly quit working on it on mobile because they ask for a lot for something that was literally free.
You ever see steam discussions for early access games? Jesus fucking Christ people are entitled as shit.
Aren’t those paid (or at least they can be)? I think that’s an entirely different can of worms…
early access games are also notorious for being dogshite and left as such, or they’re fine but with obvious flaws which are never fixed because “bro it’s still in early access!”
It really does depend on the game, though. Going Medieval for instance has been in early access for almost three years, but it’s three years of active development. Just about every week brings some kind of update, whether it’s little coding and qol stuff, to full upgrades and new mechanics being added in. They’re almost done with their roadmap.
Rimworld was another shining example. Its actual early access was a forum release, the Steam EA was polishing.
That being said I have a dead EA or two in my library. Starforge comes to mind…
these are the exceptions that prove the rule
IMO the vast majority of people that use community mods are pretty thankful and just enjoy them despite any issues the mod has so long as overall it works well. They just play and keep their mouths shut.
There are a few that offer real and constructive criticism.
And the rest are the vocal trolls that just hate on everything. Unfortunately if they aren’t “fucking your mother last night” on whatever game chat you might be on they’re busy trashing on the “unplayable” game they’ve spent 500 hours playing in the last several months or on the forums berating the modders’ efforts. They’re just hateful people and hating on women in general is par for the course, if one dares participating in gaming they’re just another target for their shitty incel behavior.
If you’re assumed to be a male, the trolls attack you if you don’t carry them. Fine, move on.
If they find out you’re female, they attack you just for existing. You can move on but It is relentless.
There is a difference in gaming experience when it comes to trolls.
I wasn’t debating that at all.
Maybe not in your opinion but using an IMO for reductivism/dousing down a topic isn’t exactly an empathetic ally move.
I think the gaming community being made of socially awkward, isolated and unemployed people doesn’t help the scenario. But I think there is light at the end of the tunnel.
People are asses sometimes, but whenever these conversations come up, I wonder: What do you even want from us? How are random people on the internet supposed to hold random anonymous trolls on the internet “accountable?” You can call them asses, but so? What if they don’t care? They’re anonymous. You could get mods to ban them, but if it’s a free service they can always make another anonymous account. It’s even more confusing in the context of something like an online game as opposed to a forum. What are you supposed to do about someone being an ass when you’ve probably never seen them before and probably won’t see them again?
I mean, call them asses. Maybe they don’t care, maybe they do, but we keep the problem relevant by being vocal against this kind of thing. To not do anything at all is to encourage trolls.
The prevailing wisdom for dealing with trolls in the past has been report, block, and move on. You never know if someone is going to thrive on that kind of conflict and a whole lot of motherfuckers love it.
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong because honestly I don’t know. I’m just sad they’re running off people contributing to their community and mad that they’re sexually harassing people.
Some people probably know them in real life. Like, you might have a friend who’s like “Yeah this [slur] wouldn’t update her mod so i posted [hateful thing] on her insta”. You could talk to them. People listen to their in-group more than randoms online.
But then again, the worst sort of people probably mostly have the worst sort of friends, and reinforce their bad behavior.
People are not assholes just because they’re anonymous. They’re assholes because they’re sociopaths. The Internet still is the refuge for isolation and escapism. I don’t think that will change, but maybe those people will be happier in the future.
Reading the article, this is a typical case of burnout. It’s happening to every artist, content creator, modder, foss developer, etc. On the long term we all have to find a balance or we won’t last long. And tbh, just learn to ignore the trolls and focus on the positive things and your passion or they will win. You can’t take them seriously. It seems the person in the article has already found herself another passion project and could throw away the suffocating chains of responsibilty and something she did not enjoy anymore and move on. I think instances like these really show us we are all just humans and we should appreciate the things we are given.
“gamers as a whole”
leave me out of this i didnt do anything.
i didnt do anything.
Exactly. Hence why the assholes get away with driving good people out. Maybe if people stood up and told the trolls to STFU and instead defended these people they wouldn’t be forced out of the community.
Blame me for something someone else did why dont you.
blame me for not forming a lynch mob why dont you.
blame me for not knowing this ws even happening.
people wonder why other people check out from communities and just go “oh” when they hear this shit is happening.
again.
leave me out of this ,i didnt do anything.
The sentiment is that we all have a responsibility to hold our community accountable for this type of behavior.
You can disagree, it is likely a matter of philosophy. I feel a responsibility to try to put more positive influence to the world, and to call out harmful actions. Not everyone does, that is fine too, albeit a little sad.
we all have a responsibility to hold our community accountable for this type of behavior.
Much like the “teach men not to rape” sentiment, the ones that will listen weren’t the problem in the first place. If the people that need to be called out were reasonable, they wouldn’t need to be called out, they don’t see what they’re doing as wrong. So we’re just screaming into the void.
So, I’m not trying to be severe here, but your argument implies you would watch someone be raped without intervening. Your argument falls apart for me with that context. Someone has to yell into the void, it’s something more than letting the problem fester unabated.
The ones who will listen need to learn to speak. Otherwise, why are listeners paying attention at all?
My argument doesn’t imply that at all. My argument is that you can’t reason with the unreasonable. You absolutely should say or do something about these people in the moment, but its extremely rare for them to realize they were in the wrong.
Telling someone on a forum that the way they’re treating a creator is wrong is not at all comparable to catching someone during a rape, and implying that because I think trying to reason with an internet troll is useless means I’d just let a rape happen is disingenuous.
Lol you’re getting downvoted for having a rational viewpoint and wanting something you care about and enjoy to be safe for other humans to enjoy it too.
How fucking dare you
Lolol. Win some, lose some, it doesn’t really matter. I made my point and am satisfied with that; it’s anyone’s right to disagree with me.
And if I am in the wrong for wanting a better community, then the state of humanity just makes me a little more sad. Far from surprised, however.
“Your boos mean nothing to me, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”
“Our community” feels a bit monolithic. It’s like saying “film watchers” or “readers”. Lumping anyone that plays video games regularly into a single social group feels unhelpfully reductive.
The problem is as prevalent and pervasive as the gaming community as a whole, which is most definitely monolithic.
i don’t disagree, call out the [HYPERLINK BLOCKED] for being [ALONE ON A LATE NIGHT], but please word it better.
there is that better?
“word your comments better”
– the guy using slurs
Not even being sarcastic; I am completely open to suggestions and constructive criticism.
That’s a pretty harmful word though, my guy, kind of antiquated. There are better insults, like “cock-brained” or “silly stupid little groundfuckers”, to name a few suggestions.
I’ve been a great fan of gaming for my entire long life. But I don’t play online games any more, because so many gamers are toxic. Obviously there are good individuals and some good outposts, but taken as a whole it is a toxic community.
I’m not a gamer. I play games, but I’m not a Gamerᵀᴹ. I noped out of the “community” a long time ago.
I’m a little curious where she’s getting the harassment from. If it’s from twitter, I don’t know what to tell her. It’s designed to amplify hate and anxiety. If it’s from lan parties or irl shit, yeah, I haven’t experienced it, but I have seen that to a degree.
edit: Wait. Is the “harassment” coming from needy fans asking her to tweak her work for their liking? That’s a little different from what I assumed this was about. I’m not going to side with the community nagging her for tweaks, but if she’s creating this for herself, she needs to disengage from those types. If she’s creating these mods, putting them out online and expecting only positive comments, I don’t know what to tell her. This is something all big modders and have to deal with.
The article glosses over the sexual harassment until the end. She says that pictures of her were distributed on discord and mentions the daily harassment and sexualization from the community.
Yeah and someone else in this threat brought up that there’s another side to the discord drama. Frankly, this case is too messy to untangle. I can’t tell if she’s being completely honest or if all this could have been prevented of she set better boundaries. Regardless, I don’t think it speaks to the greater issues in “gaming culture”.
