Members of the software developer community have reported deleting or altering their posts to prevent them from being used by OpenAI.

  • madcaesar@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    People cheering on SOs demise don’t realize what we’re losing.

    Support is moving to discord which sucks massive ass. Asking the same question over and over, hoping somone is around to help.

    It sucks.

    • billwashere@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      I never understood the move to synchronous communication for asynchronous questions. The ephemeral nature of discord is really a PITA. It’s like using IRC for a FAQ.

      • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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        8 months ago

        Discord is honestly the most awful way to create a helpful community.

        It’s a great way to give the 20 most active members of the community someplace to trample on top of newbies trying to get questions answered.

      • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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        8 months ago

        It makes sense if the issues being discussed are time-sensitive. Sometimes people need a solution now, not to open a bug report and hope that it will get a response an unspecified amount of time later.

      • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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        7 months ago

        It’s purely because of how easy it is to create and manage a community. Imagine if there were a way to make a Lemmy instance without any fees or knowledge of selfhosting, it would be an instant success.

        They don’t operate well at scale needed, though.

      • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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        8 months ago

        Pretty soon search engines won’t be able to return anything anymore. At which point we might be looking for communities where live people can help with our issue. And if that happens Discord won’t look that out of place anymore.

        If you can go somewhere and have your problem solved do you really care that some schmuck later won’t be able to find the solution written somewhere and will have to go through the same process?

        • Kraiden@kbin.run
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          8 months ago

          You’re forgetting about the schmuck on the other end of that equation that has to answer the same question a thousand times over.

          • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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            7 months ago

            A server I’m in actually has a bot that, whenever a user types a command, will respond to a question with an answer.

            Simple example:

            @\Johnny: “Hey, my browser says 404, what does that mean?”

            @\Support: !\404 @\Johnny"

            @\Bot (using Discord’s reply feature to reply to Johnny’s post): “‘404’ is a common error message that can be caused by a variety of issues. Here are steps to resolve the most common issues:…”

            I didn’t feel like typing out steps to check if the website is down for everyone or to fix it if it’s just you, but you get the idea.

            The server I’m in doesn’t typically handle questions about that, either. They’re more specialized to something more specific that that, but, again, you get the idea.

          • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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            8 months ago

            Nah, that person can just ignore/block you.

            I didn’t say it was a perfect setup. 🙂

            And tbf there’s lots of people who don’t read the FAQ even if you shove their face in it.

    • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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      8 months ago

      Support is moving to discord which sucks massive ass.

      It sucks but can you blame them? It’s a natural response when people see that the old method (public posting and indexing) is being corrupted and grows increasingly irrelevant.

      We’re going to see more and more knowledge becoming insular and/or gated behind manual curation.

      This doesn’t necessarily have to mean Discord, can be private forums of any kind but private nonetheless. Discord may be the wrong tool but the problem it’s being applied to is real.

      • Simon Müller@sopuli.xyz
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        7 months ago

        it sucks but can you blame them?

        For picking discord I very much can blame them, I figure it won’t be long until that goes down the drain too.

        • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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          7 months ago

          Discord could solve this particular issue by simply adding a wiki.

          We’re going to see a lot of changes in online community tools and in the way people use those tools. Lemmy is not exactly revolutionary either, it’s modern but it’s still a forum at its core.

          • barryamelton@lemmy.ml
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            7 months ago

            Discord could solve this particular issue by simply adding a wiki.

            yeah, as Stack Overflow could. Discord is bound to the stakeholders, and is already getting enshittified.

            • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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              7 months ago

              and is already getting enshittified.

              Not yet. They’re still trying to squeeze money out of people with their profile pic frames and stuff. They’ve yet to introduce ads into app (for now).

    • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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      8 months ago

      Not to mention the people answering the questions are liable to just start accusing you of being an idiot if you make any less progress with their solution than “it’s been fixed so hard that it gained five new functions I didn’t even write into it!” I wrote a 3Js project once and ISTG the people on that discord had all the patience of a three year old who suddenly has to go to the bathroom the red second you’ve merged onto the highway.

    • kromem@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Once upon a time, they stepped forth from the forests of IRC, but back into those dark woods they then one day marched.

    • Meltrax@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I give it a few months before the Community tier servers’ data is dumped and sold to an AI model company.

    • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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      7 months ago

      I just got a ping the other day from a Discord server that said they’d finished moving their support onto a forum on their website specifically because Discord’s forum feature is terrible.

    • mindlesscrollyparrot@discuss.tchncs.de
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      7 months ago

      The period when dejanews just started to index newsgroups was a golden age for finding answers on the internet, IMO, and there’s a strong similarity to the fediverse. All we need is for it to be searchable… OK, I see your point now.

    • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      I support the take over. People thinking that they can pick and choose who makes money and how are fooling themselves. The developer who wants all his IP protected so he can make money is upset that a larger entity is also making money is honestly tough fucking shit. Either go back to the origins of the internet napster days or shut the fuck up and live with what we created. There isn’t any middle ground. Its only going to get worse unless you make this place hostile to people building walls and stealing all the data for themselves.

  • N0x0n@lemmy.ml
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    8 months ago

    I feel so bad for the long term contributors :/

    The only good thing I could think off, is that someone is going to create a defederated stackoverflow alternative?

    Or something similar, to bring back real human interaction…

    If this wasn’t enough, This will probably raise war against corporated AI.

    • AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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      8 months ago

      It won’t. Some people will scream bloody murder, most people will ignore it.

      SO was in decline anyway. Most answers you’ll find are several years old and outdated, because some idiot thought the new ones are duplicates.

      So now a few people will leave, the spamming idiots will keep spamming the platform with low effort nonsensical answers and its relevance will dwindle just a bit faster.

      Look at Reddit. Last year there was a huge outrage and today it’s pretty much the same as before.

      Most people don’t care. Most people feel so powerless, that they’ll accept every privacy scandal, every exploitive business strategy, every sellout of their platform.

      • Hackworth@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Is Reddit pretty much the same? From my limited perspective, a lot of the genuine contributors left, quietly or otherwise. I’ve found it much more difficult to have an interesting discussion on there since the API debacle. Most of Reddit was already lurkers and bots, so all it took was a significant proportion of the tiny minority of quality contributors to take their time elsewhere for reddit to become a complete dumpster fire.

        • morbidcactus@lemmy.ca
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          8 months ago

          Anecdotally, pretty much every time I’m searching for information on reddit a number of comments are redacted or even the op is deleted. The only reason I didn’t purge my comments is in case someone might find them helpful.

          • Hackworth@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            I have all my deleted comments in a csv (with context links), which I plan on fine-tuning an LLM with just for fun. I guess if there’s a platform that’ll accept it, I’d be happy to upload it. Mostly I wanted to make sure the info remains free for everyone, including AI researchers.

        • PeachMan@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Reddit is still pretty useful, but it will become less and less relevant as contributors leave, just like StackOverflow did. Side note: are contributors actually leaving Reddit? People keep saying that’s happening, but I don’t really see it…maybe it’s very slow? Might depend heavily on the subreddit too.

          • Hackworth@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            I don’t have numbers, but I did. Took Redact 9 hours to overwrite & delete the 17,000 comments on my 17-year-old account. But watching them scroll by, most weren’t really worth keeping. I saw several 15+ year-old active accounts do the same before I left.

            • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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              8 months ago

              Wait, how can it find all your past comments? I thought Reddit only have you a list of the most recent 1000 or something like that?

              • Hackworth@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                Through the API - well, it was through the API before they changed it. No idea if that’s possible now.

      • dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
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        8 months ago

        This is something I have tried to convey since I came here when people are fantasising about the death of Reddit, I just couldn’t put it as eloquent as yourself.

        I take the approach that me not using Reddit, or Amazon or whatever else is a choice I make so I can live with myself, and not that I believe it will have an impact.

        I have alluded to this in previous comments in the past, that many of the choices I make actually negatively impact me more than the company I’m avoiding. Example: Not using WhatsApp means I can’t join group chats with friends as they won’t use signal as the things I care about, are meaningless to them. Or that I can’t find some items to buy except from on Amazon so I just won’t buy them etc.

        All we can do is stick to our own morals and let others do as they will as it’s futile to make people care about the things we think they should.

        • Kraiden@kbin.run
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          8 months ago

          I feel this. I’m well aware that if my partner wasn’t on Facebook, we wouldn’t have a social life. I HATE that fact, but that, sadly, is where people put their events. I don’t think I’d join if she left, but I can’t deny that I benefit from her being on the platform.

          She won’t leave until everybody else does, and they won’t leave until everybody else does, and so nobody leaves. It’s dystopian.

      • Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        SO was in decline anyway. Most answers you’ll find are several years old and outdated, because some idiot thought the new ones are duplicates.

        There’s been a new thing (for the past two years anyways) where some power tripping user would edit the highest rated answer, causing new users to fail to get recognition.

        So a new user answers a old question with the latest way to do something based on new language specs… And they’d get 1-2 votes.

        Why even contribute then?

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          8 months ago

          To help others? That’s why I did it. Someone editing that into the highest upvoted answer is good because more people will see it.

          Unless you care about karma, how is this bad?

    • MrSoup@lemmy.zip
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      8 months ago

      The only good thing I could think off, is that someone is going to create a defederated stackoverflow alternative?

      I’ve read of someone making an alternative to stackexchange federated. Let me lookup for it and add a link here.

      Here it is:
      https://lemmy.ml/post/15471686

    • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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      8 months ago

      Do you mean federated? And what would federation solve?

      The only way you’re separating humans from LLM will be by asking for government ID but that would eliminate anonymity. And even so people could sneak in LLMs under their credentials.

    • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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      8 months ago

      is that someone is going to create a defederated stackoverflow alternative?

      God I would love that. But as simple as the UI is, it would be some real work.

      • dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
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        8 months ago

        What do you think the hardest challenge would be?

        I’m a software developer but I don’t know too much about working with de-federated services, but I would be interested in working on a Stack for us, if it was feasible and maybe we got a few more devs on board.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          8 months ago

          I’m working on a P2P Reddit alternative, but Reddit is basically a more complicated StackExchange. Here’s the mapping:

          • stack exchange site -> community/subreddit
          • question -> post
          • answer -> top level comment

          The missing bits:

          • selected answer - easy metadata to add
          • comment on question
          • bounty - is it needed?
          • tags - again, easy metadata to add

          Maybe I’ll consider forking my project once it’s ready and turn it into a QA site. The hardest part will be useful search due to its distributed nature.

        • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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          7 months ago

          What do you think the hardest challenge would be?

          I honestly wouldn’t know where to begin. Hardest to start would be learning enough of the problem space to identify p problems, but that’s just what’s in front of me

    • whoisearth@lemmy.ca
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      8 months ago

      That actually sounds like a good idea. Like Lemmy you have communities of common or popular languages like java or python which you can join and everyone there assists with questions. As it grows you might see a node for spring or flask get created for more niche discussions.

    • spiderman@ani.social
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      7 months ago

      why would they want to move to a defederated SO, it’s going to be public anyways too.

        • KamikazeRusher@lemm.ee
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          8 months ago

          I think it would’ve been funny if the title was “StackOverflow contributors are revolting” and the comment was “a little more than usual.”

          But hey, gotta get whatever amount of humor in while you can.

      • tal@lemmy.today
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        8 months ago

        He’s punning on the multiple meanings of “revolting”.

        Stack Overflow Users Are Revolting Against an OpenAI Deal

        Stack Overflow Users Are Revolting

        https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/revolting

        Adjective

        revolting (comparative more revolting, superlative most revolting)

        repulsive, disgusting

        The most revolting smell was coming from the drains.

    • Endmaker@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Looks like downvoters don’t get the joke. I first seen it on the cover of Horrible History.

    • Shadowq8@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I bet its related to the continuous need to liquidate resources to support the proxy war effort. You can’t print money withour offering some value.

  • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
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    8 months ago

    Stack overflow still have users? These days it rarely shows up on my search results and when it does the answers are always outdated by several years.

    • 9point6@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Interesting, I still see it pretty consistently in the first few results in my experience and usually with a pretty recent one too

    • magic_lobster_party@kbin.run
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      8 months ago

      What options are there to use instead? I think they’re still often having the best results, and are usually near the top.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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        8 months ago

        I guess I’ve moved to the part of my career where Stack Overflow isn’t that helpful, but I’ve found a lot of utility in searching issues on GitHub and Reddit posts.

        • fuzzzerd@programming.dev
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          8 months ago

          I’m right there with you. It’s nice to know it’s been there if I needed it. I don’t find myself there very often anymore and when I do it’s often to compare official docs to other ways to approach something or because the getting started section of the official docs felt weird or wrong.

    • nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br
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      8 months ago

      But are they losing the first positions because they’re losing relevance, or is it due to other sites abusing seo and search engines abusing from advertising results?

      • AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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        8 months ago

        I’d say the former.

        Many queries don’t find relevant questions, and the relevant questions are often not answered properly. I often find the exact same problem I’m having, but the answers are just a bunch of those CV padders that post completely irrelevant answers based on a buzzword they saw while skimming the question.

        • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 months ago

          When I do find relevant answers, lately they’re all so old that they no longer work, or rely on now deprecated functionality of a library or system.

          Finding code snippets for interfacing with Azure through PowerShell is a crapshoot because Microsoft keeps deprecating different PowerShell modules for it.

  • rimjob_rainer@discuss.tchncs.de
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    7 months ago

    It’s time for a federated version. How about “OutOfMemory”? It would fit because I always return to the same topics on StackOverflow.

    • Lath@kbin.earth
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      8 months ago

      This title doesn’t mention it, but it was reported earlier that users editing their past posts against this move get banned for it.

      • dust_accelerator@discuss.tchncs.de
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        8 months ago

        Need to make sure the diff is small enough. A tiny change that creates a bug or makes the answer effectively useless is much worse than sweeping changes

        • Plopp@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          But that leaves a lot of good code. The bad parts are very unlikely to appear in the AI results due to the amount of good code in the training set.

          • Kokesh@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            I got banned as expected. For a month. After I’m unbanned, I’ll edit a few characters every day. Not giving up. As unlawful it sounds, apparently you are not entitled to ask them to remove all your data.

    • reversebananimals@lemmy.world
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      I did on Friday and within 5 mins they suspended me and reverted them all. I knew they would so I didn’t care - I just did it so they’d see as many unhappy users as possible.

      I then deleted my account of over 10 years with over 50k reputation. Fuck stackoverflow.

      • Anon518@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        I don’t understand why you and others are so mad about this. Stackoverflow is a great resource that takes significant time and money to maintain. I don’t have a problem with the maintainers making money by selling access to train AI on the data.

        Having Stackoverflow as an alternative to reddit is important so that people aren’t stuck using reddit.

        • jaybone@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Yeah I don’t get this either. As long as they keep the main SO sites up and available, why should anyone care if they train AI on it? Deleting or defacing content is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

      • Kokesh@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Same reason for me. Take some of their time and say fuck you to them. But I will do crippling edits by single characters in one month time. I have time.

  • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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    7 months ago

    Oh, look, it’s Reddit all over again.

    (Yes, yes, different reason. Same user response, though.)

    • InternetPerson@lemmings.world
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      7 months ago

      Not necessarily, no. There are a plethora of non-profit services and pages on the net.

      What platform do you think you used to write that commeent?

      Regarding platforms of for-profit companies, you are more right than wrong though.

      • Patrick@lemmy.today
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        7 months ago

        Oh I was referring to for profit. Should have specified. I’m used to using that when meta screws over their users.

      • demizerone@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Lately it’s been companies using liberal licenses to build their product up really fast and then doing a rig pull bcz “oh no we can’t have competition!”.

        But it’s also from the user perspective… Freedom to not pay a lonely dev that’s been coding on the project for “fun” or “for the community” for 15 years.

        I love free software, but if y:all want it to succeed you need to support the devs!

  • Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Okay but why? It’s not like it’s personal Data or something. I don’t get why people are mad ._.

    EDIT: Ofcourse you can downvote me but I’d really like an answer, tho. The article is not very clear about this.

    • InternetPerson@lemmings.world
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      7 months ago

      Because it’s original work they contributed for free. Lending others that kind of expertise and time, just that it get’s used by a machine learning algorithm, which aims to reproduce this, without giving it back to them or the community in a similar free manner, feels violating.
      Apart from that, creators feel ownership over their content and it feels wrong not to be asked what happens to it. (Although those probably wouldn’t – or shouldn’t – use SO anyway, as their content gets commercialised anyway by giving it SO for free.)

    • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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      7 months ago

      It gives worse answers and hallucinates a lot, problems specific to the model’s design and not how much training data it gets. Even if it did work, it would be taking jobs away from actual programmers. It’s a total net negative, users have nothing to benefit from this. Plus, since this is a community of programmers, they’re all very much aware of these limitations and the lack of ethics of OpenAI.

  • foggy@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    Do people still use stack overflow? I feel like their days are numbered.

    • Bogasse@lemmy.ml
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      8 months ago

      Well, when good documentation is available it isn’t necessary but good documentation is not always available. And it can still be helpful with niche issues 🤷

      • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        8 months ago

        PowerShell Microsoft Graph Module. Most of the official doc pages have at least one section of “TODO” in them.

        After they officially deprecated the previous modules with similar functionality.

      • foggy@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        I mean, good documentation + LLM = Stack overflow is 100% obsolete

        Why else would they speed run enshitification?

        • alexdeathway@programming.dev
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          8 months ago

          Nope, Documentation + LLM misses the big chunk what we call human errors, commonly x y problems, LLM are good until you need to get deep then they start giving surface level answer it’s possible to point them toward the right direction by refining but at that point i would prefer reading Documentation.

        • AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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          8 months ago

          To make money. If user engagement drops, revenue drops. The existing content is the only real asset this company has.