My boomer parents will die on the hill that it sounds “wrong” to use “they” to refer to a singular entity. And whenever they bring that up, I always remind them that the word “they” has been used in that way for AGES.
Example: “Whose umbrella is this? Did they already leave?”
It doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Watched a video that addressed this in good faith, because it is a tad awkward. They brought up and old term (because this isn’t new), “thone”, short for “the one”. And I’mma be real with you, “THE ONE, DIRK MCCALLAHAN” does ring kinda hard.
There’s a few things from history we should start using again, and this is one of them
It doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Most people arguing about this are coming from an emotional place, so facts and truths don’t really matter. If gender in language is important to your in-group, that’s what matters. Not the history of language. Not the dictionary. The group believes this. If you reject your group, you’ll die alone. Or that’s what the brain would have you believe. We’re all a little susceptible to social influence on belief. Some people are just unwilling or unable to overcome it.
Belief is social.
For many people, emotion is the only truth.
What’s craziest to me is that people so often adopt beliefs as to belong to some sort of in group, right, but won’t necessarily adopt the set of beliefs that actually immediately benefits them, ingratiates them to their immediate surrounding environment, gives them a more functional outlook. No, it’s way simpler, people just adopt the beliefs of what they perceive in their immediate surroundings. Oftentimes this manifests more as people locking themselves into increasingly insular media environments, rather than, say, having productive conversations with their kids, or allowing themselves to be convinced by their friends, or being able to even really talk on a surface level with their co-workers. Their immediate environment, their “in-group”, can supercede physical reality.
have you tried having these conversations?
they don’t go so well IRL than they do in your head. the conservation you want in your head requires two willing and thoughtful parties… often there is only one person with that mindset… or sometimes none.
I had at trans friend who I did talk about this stuff with a few years ago… but now they are a radicalized nutcase and they are more focused on being ‘pronoun’ police and making every topic about ‘their suffering’ etc. oftentimes sane people become crazy people.
yep.
my entire life I got shit form grammar nazis for preferring gender neutral language. now i get shit for not asking everyone their pronoun. and my entire life I have had to put up with people’s shitty assumptions about me based on my physical appearance.
it never ends. people just want to be angry and feel superior to others who don’t agree with them and browbeat others into submission, all the while being judgemental about how others look vs how they think they should look.
“He or she” sounds and looks so cumbersome. “They” is the superior pronoun on style/conciseness alone.
It was beaten into me in school that this is incorrect. “They” is to be used as a plural pronoun only. It’s commonly used in the singular, but it’s wrong according to the English teachers I had. In referring to a person, you must choose either he or she under those grammar rules.
With that said, maybe it’s time for me to move into the future and accept that the meaning of the word has changed. I am confident those English teachers weren’t concerned about actual gender issues. Now, I think those issues are more important than the technical grammatical issues of English.
I’ve offended people in a social setting by insisting that this is the correct usage, when truly it was just me being autistic and informal rather than political.
Perhaps it was the English teachers who were wrong.
Correct or not, people have been using it like that for a while.
Fascinating! I didn’t know there was an article about this.
This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they.
That’s more than official enough for me!
It used to be correct APA/MLA formatting to use “he/she” when the gender of a subject was unknown. That was changed back in the mid 00’s I think. The preferred format is now “they” over “he/she”.
That being said, people use singular they/them all the time in casual conversation. We just aren’t used to using it when we know or think we know the gender of the person. But let’s be honest, there have always been people that have been hurt by being misgendered. Hell, it was common for some racists to use they/them with black women in an attempt to dehumanize them. So this idea that the singular they is new is absolutely ridiculous.
Ok, even there we have bigger issues. How can literally mean figuratively?
Oh yeah, that one is absolutely terrible and I will die on that hill. Figuratively speaking.
“literally” being used to mean “figuratively” dates back to 3 years after the word “literally” began meaning “actually”. If this is a hill to die on, you need to use “literally” exclusively to mean “as written in the texts”. Common usage of “literally” to mean “actually” and “figuratively” both date to the 1590s
No one uses literally to mean figuratively. They use it to emphasize regardless of if what they’re emphasizing includes figurative language. Nearly every word that means something similar to “in actual fact” undergoes this semantic drift (actually, really, etc).
“She literally exploded at me.” is similar in meaning to “She totally exploded at me.” Not so much to “She figuratively exploded at me.”
Nearly every word that means something similar to “in actual fact” undergoes this semantic drift (actually, really, etc).
I looked into this for 3 minutes and found examples in multiple languages.
Neat.
New expression-insight remix into the human condition connected; We literally really actually feel the need to be sure we’re understood, no matter the hyperbolic lengths gone to, huh?
When my brain interpreted ‘they’ singular to refer to a unspecified so-far unnamed person or an already mentioned group, it was definitely confusing to have it suddenly used to refer to someone who had just been referred to by name. This was definitely a novel use of ‘they’ for me at the time and I don’t understand why no-one else ever seems to have this kind of confusion. I did get used to it but I don’t think it’s as universal as some of y’all realise.
Edit: I just learnt the term ‘indeterminate antecedent’ from the Wikipedia article someone else linked. Thanks to them, I just got a little bit smarter. ;-)
I’m getting pretty old.
Transgender stuff is new and confusing to me.
My only experience with it was in a bar I used to frequent in Los Angeles, though I think they were more transvestite than transgender. Pronouns never came up there. We just used names.
It’s easy for me to use any name given when introduced. If you introduce yourself to me with a feminine name when you appear quite male, it’s no skin off my teeth.
Pronouns are more difficult simply because of my embedded native language of English dictating gender. While difficult, it’s no more inconvenient than to slow myself down, think about what I’m saying, and try to use what’s preferred. If I should slip up, then maybe a brief, “oops, sorry about that,” is in order.
The hardest thing for me is if I have known you as one name and now I’ve got to use a new name. This has nothing to do with gender or politics however. It’s just how my brain stores things. My sister uses a different first name in adulthood than when we were kids, and I never have been able to adapt. Since my sister is awesome and understands me, she gives me a pass on this.
Bottom line, the linguistics can be difficult for us oldies, but that doesn’t give us reason to fear, hate, or persecute.
Luckily most people are going to be like your sister.
Sometimes people have their own shit going on that might make them “overreact” to your slip ups.
Weirdly you’ll see people that trust you more react more strongly but it’s not a you problem. They’re likely venting against constant micro aggressions in a “safer” space, so try and be forgiving:)
You’re right about it taking more work the longer you’ve known someone the harder it gets… It takes zero time for me to register “they/them” for someone I just met… But I still fuck up with a 20 year friend that switched 5 years ago…
Just remembering it’s not about you and as long as you try your best you’ll be fine.
38 years here. Pronouns based on appearance are pretty solidly baked into my brain.
I’m willing to improve if you’re willing to be patient and deal with my fuck ups.
I think (in general) any one should be just allowed to say “oops” in any situation, in any case, however bad it is, to note he/she/(add any extra pronouns) has said/done and gone something that should not have happened or taken place. It’s like software crashing of thinking, which happens and will happen more than we would like to.
And yet, in both cases, there is a significant subset of people who don’t see it that way. They see it as your personal fault/failure as a human being from not knowing the right pronoun, or that the software crashing is your fault.
If I’m genuinely trying to adapt to something, I’ve got no time for intolerance toward my errors en route to learning. That’s on the other person regardless of makeup or identity.
It’s important to understand that Hank is specific to say “correct prounons” and not “preferred prounons”. We as creature of civilization have to right to control our place in that creation, so when someone misgenders, it’s not that they are nessecarily showing disrespect, but being factually wrong. It’s okay to state the wrong thing if you don’t know, but if you insist that only YOUR interpretation of another person is correct, even more so than how THEY THEMSELVES interpret themselves, then you have crossed the rubicon in to bigotry.
To see another person on the street and think you have a better view of them than they do in a mirror is just wild levels of arrogance. They know themslevss far more than you ever will.
That’s John Green, but they’re the same person, according to the internet.
This is exactly the comment I was gonna leave, I strongly dislike the phrase “preferred pronouns,” because that implies that it’s a preference. Big props to John for making the distinction
Try some proofreading your own comments. Dimwit.
🤣 😂
Sorry if the quick comment I left on my phone while on the toilet wasn’t up to your standards, but since you aren’t actually contributing anything of substance I don’t see a reason to care what you think.
Edit: Jesus your comment history is sad. Seems like you never can think of anything worthwhile to say. Stay mad I guess?
Hey, just FYI the period before “dimwit” should be a comma. If you’re going to hold other people to a standard, at least hold yourself to the same one, asshole.
No. They are separate sentences.
“Dimwit” is not a sentence.
It is.
It’s also proofreading
Bro just use singular they. Why is it so hard.
because people change their pronouns and they get pissed off if you use the wrong one.
I’ve had trans people tell me their pronoun. OK, cool. Then a few weeks/months later, they change it. Then they jump down my throat for not knowing the new one they have picked. One person I know was she/they, now they are he. well sorry if I didn’t check your FB status or whatever to see when you updated it… but last time I talked to this person and used the old pronoun they went OFF on me about what a facist I am or something. (let me add this person IDs as androgynous and claims to be asexual and does not have a gendered appearance)
Look, most trans people are cool, but there are a few out there who are DETERMINED to be complete assholes about it. And it’s like… ok I’m not going to bother anymore. I’d rather just avoid them entirely, just like I avoid middle-aged white women like the plague since too many of them have Karen syndrome.
From my experience most trans people are pretty clear cut. I get that they change their pronouns a lot when transitioning and coming out of the closet because it must be hard to pick a pronoun when you dont even know who you are. They are usually ok with the singular they. My problem is with tiktok queers and people who just change it for fun basically. I dont care if your pronoun is xe or idk but i do care when you dont accept if i use they(which i even use for cishet people because in my native language we dont have genders and its just generally easier).
sadly where I live lots of queers/trans are of the tiktok variety. a lot of them are trust fund types who aspire to be influences and have vanity jobs and want to lecture you on how they are an artist or something. they get really pissed off if you call them ‘they’ for some reason.
You used they in this comment but don’t state you use they as a generic pronoun. Dude just use they
Avoid “them” meaning all trans people or the handful of dipshits you were choosing to talk to?
All of them now. It only takes a few times of being physical threatened and verbally assaulted before you just decide it’s not worth it. IME the ratio of cool trans people to psychos is 1:1, so it’s 50/50.
I get they feel ‘under threat’ but taking it out on well-meaning people who support you isn’t the answer… and frankly a few years ago it was never big deal. But like I said me not being ‘up’ on the latest pronoun you choose used to be NBD a few years ago… now it’s ‘erasing my existence’ or some crazy extremest nonsense. I have no interest in interacting with extremists.
You can’t know if someone is a dipshit until after you interact with them, btw.
Yeah painting all trans people that way is nonsense. It gets pretty close to bigotry territory. I gotta wonder where you live or what kind of choices you are making to surround yourself with that many unhinged people. Where I’m at I’ve encountered zero trans people that act like you’ve described.
I can only paint people with the experience they give me of themselves. If I’ve treated like a bigot, I will start be likely to start acting like one. I live in Boston and it’s become really bad the past few years. I have been physically attacked by trans people for standing in line at a coffee shop because they demanded I ‘give up my privilege’ and I ignored their crazy nonsense, so they escalated because they know nobody would take by side, because I’m the ‘big bad white guy’ and most of the staff were trans.
Least to say I don’t go to coffee shop anymore. And yeah, I am becoming a bigot because of how I’m treated with bigotry. It’s almost like hate breeds hate and I want no part of that horrible shit.
“You can’t know if someone is a dipshit until after you interact with them, btw.” That you said that is kinda at odds with what you are saying now.
If you are going to treat all members of a group as being the same as the worst members you have met then you are just choosing to be a bigot.
The issue isn’t trans people as a whole. It’s also not even close to half of trans people. There is something unique about your situation.
This person is either lying, or had some karen at the coffee shop go off, and is now stretching that. I have family in Boston, Including a couple that live Jamaica Plains. That has been like LGBTQ central for a while. They, and no one they know, have ever been assaulted by people over privilege, pronouns, or for being white/straight/male/cis. They said the only place they have ever seen such eruptions of behavior is online, meaning it’s just the rare karen.
That, or they are bigot that goes out and agitates this type of behavior. Then frames it in a manner in which they are the victim.
no, it’s basic survival instinct.
if i eat the purple berries and they make me puke, i’m not going to eat them again. am i now bigoted against purple berries? or should i just keep eating them and getting sick and doing it over and over again?
just like if i have a shitty meal at a restaurant, i won’t go back to that place, or that chain if it’s a chain. etc etc.
That is a quality of life issue. This person’s issue is not their changing pronouns, it is that they are an asshole, who loves to milk the victim role.
I am a cis, male guy, who due to some hormonal issues looked androgynous and sounded like a girl when I was in my late teens and early 20s, and was addressed as “miss” quite often, and for the most part, people would just say “Sorry” when corrected, then address me as a guy.
This is how people should behave, the person you describe is just an asshole, whether they are aware of it or not.
Same issue I used to have with gay people, I used to think they were all loudmouth assholes, until I found out that what I had been exposed to was a loud minority, a ton of gay people are your regular Joe and Jane, and you would never know they were gay unless they told you.
Don’t let a loud minority sour your day, you have been doing the right thing, and the downvoted are overzealous, reactionary assholes.
I know, they are an asshole. Just like many cops are assholes.
But give the propensity of assholes in the group, the safest course of action is to just avoid them entirely. I also have no interest in interact with police, and yet I bet nobody would call me a bigot for saying that…
Eh, that’s different. Police officers choose the profession. Trans folks aren’t choosing the trans life, they’re discovering who they really are (maybe I should have just quipped “…the trans life chose them”, ha).
There’s nothing wrong with trying to avoid assholes, but when you start painting with a broad brush like that, well, it does smack of bigotry. Same energy as racists who memorize arrest statistics and then say things like “It’s not racist if it’s true!”
Also, to be clear: I don’t mean to accuse you of anything. I just see some uncomfortable parallels.
Personally, I don’t have a lot of experience in this area. I’ve really only been acquainted with two trans people, and I don’t/didn’t know them very well (I say didn’t because I haven’t seen the one person since before covid). Both were friends-of-friends type acquaintances that I’d see at game nights and the like.
Cool. I’ve been acquainted with dozens of trans people and known a dozen on a regular social basis and a few quite well…
turns out they are just like… people. some of them are cool… but a good chunk of them are selfish jerks just like any group of people.
for some reason people want to lionize trans people as they suffering saints… and anyone who criticisms trans folks is clearly a hateful bigot… which also tells me they know nothing about trans people and put them on a podium. the brush i paint trans people with is broad… because they are people. they aren’t some other subspecies of human beings with superior moral worth, empathy and insight. some of them are really great, most of them are not so great, and a bunch of them are awful humans who delight in antisocial behaviour. have you ever hung out in trans internet forums? they are full of awful hateful and bigoted shit… often direct at other trans folks, and incessant gatekeeping about who or what is really ‘trans’. it’s disgusting.
and being trans is a choice. just like me presenting a a cis het man is a choice. just like i wanted to dress up in a woman’s outfit an go out tonight… that would be a choice. just like the trans folks who go around policing other people’s pronouns, fashion choices, and their gender worthiness choose to do that.
but of course don’t let the complexities of the human condition and identity get in the way of a good ‘hurrr durr well yer a bigot and i am a good purrrson for saying so’ internet self-righteous indignation.
I have to deal with extremely bad gender dysphoria, so yes I would trade my struggles with any transphobe who thinks they have it rough
My personal favorite for singular gender neutral pronouns are Zi/zir/zirs/zirself or Ze/zer/zers/zerself.
Xe is just trying to be Zi/Ze and it would be confusing for Chinese people. There’s also female connotations with X genome vs Y genome. Which is he Ye is also meh.
I wouldn’t mind Ve, ver, vers, verself either.
Ze sounds more unique and it’s kinda neat how it’s Gen Z helping push it too.
Otherwise just use the pronouns they prefer.
Having to write official documents while having to use they/them is annoying without gender neutral terms coming into it.
English really just needs a better gender neutral singular and plural pronouns. Since they has been used for plural most of my life it feels like better singulars are the way to go, but it doesn’t really matter. Just someone make it official please lol.
Stop it.
Huh? Did someone claim that???
One of john green’s tiny, ridiculous problems is that he has an ego that requires him to share his thoughts via tweets to fix the world.
His thoughts are like mine, fairly irrelevant, reprehensible to some and an echo chamber to others. At least I have the modesty and humbleness to know that my thoughts belong in the comments section of an unknown social media platform where it will be read by, at most, 20 people.
I like how you realized you had to hedge at the end to not look like a ridiculous hypocrite. “What I’m doing here is totally different because my audience is smaller.” You can just delete the comment if you find yourself backed into a corner like that. It’s sunk cost fallacy to go ahead with posting it.
Thanks for the enlightened pro-tip.
This almost reads like an ironic shitpost
Almost
I love italics.
Love
John Green actually has a large following. You have no one who cares what you say.
Buuurn.
So who in your opinion has the right to post to twitter?
I didn’t speak about anyone’s rights. Just about egos and the need to share ridicule.
According to you he stepped out of line for having the audacity to post his thoughts on a platform made for posting thoughts. The truth is it’s not his ego that you have an issue with it’s that one topic.
Thank you for the keyboard psychology, it’s enlightening. You may, however, need to go back to school for some fine tuning or maybe just wipe the dust off of your magic 8 ball, however.
It’s his small-minded ridicule on a global platform that I was making comment about. I don’t have an opinion on his chosen topic as it doesn’t effect me in any way.
Uh-huh. You clearly have some emotional beef with either John or the topic. Since twitter is made for anyone to share their random thoughts there is nothing out of line or arrogant of him using the platform for it’s intended purpose. So we can either accept that you are not bright enough to know what twitter is or we can very reasonably assume that what’s really got you worked up is you don’t like people standing up for trans people…or you have that secret beef with John. You want to frame ridiculing bigots as “small minded”. That’s also telling about you. You do have an opinion on the topic. That’s what caught your eye and compelled you to make your nonsense comments.
Man, you’re terrible at this whole psychological workup stuff.
You are terrible at expressing what your real issue with John’s post was.
And yet you’re still posting. If you posted on Twitter, no one would give a shit. That’s because people like him and find value in what he has to say. And he’s trying to help people in that tweet.
If you think you’re posts are so valueless, couldn’t you just take your own advice and shut the fuck up?
I could but then I wouldn’t benefit from all this constructive criticism and life pro tips.
He’s building hospitals/maternity wards in Sierra Leone, fighting healthcare companies to reduce the cost of life-saving medications, and creating free educational content as some of his side projects while also being a writer and consistent YouTuber. He’s doing far more than ‘sharing his thoughts via tweets to fix the world’. He’s doing the work too.
What you’re projecting doesn’t come across as ‘modesty and humbleness’. Feels more like jealousy and bitterness.
I know what he’s done because I’ve followed his instructional video channels for years. You know, where he teaches stuff, not just ridicules groups he doesn’t agree with.
Oh, you’re upset because you’re feeling called out, not because you don’t understand. Sorry to hear that this non-problem is the hill you’ve chosen the die on.
Thanks for the apology.
That’s sad. I hope you gain the courage to speak your truth openly someday
Thanks for the kind thoughts. It means a lot.
Someone sharing their thoughts on the platform literally made so people can easily share their thoughts? Absolutely insane thing for John to do, you’re right.
So you’re saying calling people by their preferred pronouns is a great difficulty for you?
I call people by their preferred pronouns because this is something that’s completely inconsequential and meaningless to me. But the same kind of argument can be made against you: “So you’re saying taking “no” for an answer is a great difficulty for you?”
If I traveled to some country where a particular religion - let’s call it X - was the most common, and in X people were ascribed different pronouns based on some rules or rituals, I would call them by their preferred pronouns because as an atheist and moral anti-realist that’s just not something important to me. But if a Christian felt uncomfortable doing so because it goes against their religion their position is just as valid - arguably it’s more valid since in this example the people from X are asking the Christian to change their vocabulary, while the Christian isn’t asking anything of the people from X.
Some Christians feel uncomfortable treating people of another skin color as equal to them and say it’s because of their religion. I don’t really give a shit if you think your magic sky god gives you license to be rude.
You’re moving the goalpost as treating other races as equals and using different pronouns are not the same thing, but again the argument can be turned against you: Why are you rude towards Christians simply because they prefer to use a different pronoun when referring to you? Is taking “no” for an answer such a great difficulty?
Rude to Christians? They’re the ones who are saying their religion tells them that they can’t call other people what those people want to be called. That is the rude thing. How would you like it if I used a pronoun for you that was not the one you went by? You’d probably think it was rude. How about if I said it was against my religion to call you by the pronoun that fits your gender? You’d probably still think it was rude.
And it would not be rude to tell them off for doing so.
That said, in my experience, most trans and nonbinary people are incredibly patient with people like you who refuse to use their pronouns even though you’re being extremely rude to them.
To be fair, you started moving the goalposts by invoking special privilege/motivation for misaddressing people.
But to answer why I would be rude to christians for misnaming me, is because in my culture it is rude to misname people, and even more so when they’ve offered a good natured correction.
If you say you’re William, and I call you Shirley, would you defend my right to call you Shirley?
And why would it be different if The Almighty Bob said to surely call you Shirley?
I didn’t give my thoughts on the matter, since it’s irrelevant.
If that’s so, then your comments here are worse than irrelevant. I don’t know who the linked person is, but this was a very weird hole you dug for yourself.
What a very deep pit I’ve found myself in. So deep. And dark. How will I ever find my way back from this anonymous comment debacle?
He’s a popular author for young adults. Wrote the fault in our stars which was made into a massive movie. Seems like a great guy.
He’s a novelist who is active on Twitter and I have no idea why this person has such a hate boner for him.
Sounds like you’re just jealous that John Greene has more people that care about him than you do.
But don’t count yourself short, the votes on this comment of yours suggest more than 20 people read your comment!
Super jealous. So very jelly.
Goodbye, one month old account that had nothing to say in the past week until John Green suggested that refusing to use someone’s pronouns is a stupid hill to die on 👋😊
buhbye.
You could also tweet your opinions and it would only be seen by 20 people
Buuuuurn.
I’d even go simpler than that. “If calling people by their preferred pronouns is one of the hundred biggest challenges…” Inserting “correct” into the statement just begs to get into an argument with a conservative and feels like you’re trying to force them to accept a different reality than they want to.
IMHO it’s simply a personal preference thing. Let people live how they want to live. You don’t have to convince everyone that Sally is really a woman trapped in the body of a man, you just have to say that it’s her preference you call her as a “she”. People should have the freedom to define themselves. That’s it. End of story.
My conservative neighbor brought up trans stuff thinking he’d use all the conservative media talking points and my answer was simply “it doesn’t really bother me. I’m a live and let live kind of guy. If they want me to use a different pronoun I’ll do my best to switch to that pronoun.” If you spin it as a freedom instead of a reality then it’s easier to accept.
It’s the right phrase, and if it triggers a conservative to start arguing, so be it
but someone’s preferred pronouns are the correct ones to use for them
Yeah, let people live. But also, let me live. Let me define myself the way I want. Stop telling me what the fuck to say and do and think and labeling anything that is ‘different’ than your way of thinking ‘bad and wrong’.
I mean, if changing your pronouns is one of the hundred biggest challenges in your life, I am super envious of your life.
FIFY
Why do you think anyone who chooses their pronouns finds it a challenge?
Do you find it challenging to know which gender you are or do you just know?
I find it challenging how many people assume so much shit about me based on how I look, yeah.
I didn’t ask you about what other people assumed about you.
I asked you if you found it challenging to know which gender you are. Is it a challenge or do you just know?
Perhaps we could all just use he/her for everyone because its less typing (e and r right next to each other vs im on him or he on she) and less space taken up on screens and paper? It would end run the haterade bigots looking to stir shit up and the self serving jackasses that inject themselves as the main character in every else’s life choices and experiences.
In my own case, I only really take issue with the singular vs plural pronouns because they/them implies multiple people. Declaring they/them as your pronoun feels like an awkward adjustment to force on everyone else, not at all from a gender fluid or gendered language position, just from a logical expedience of exactness of language position.
We make all this shit up anyway, so let’s just collectively define a shortest pronoun to represent individuals universally. Equality of respect among peers.
This person, they understand singular pronouns, if everyone was like them no one would use they or them to refer to one person.
I mean, my only real argument is about efficiency and language exactness for the sake of clarity of meaning. Here’s a version based on my suggestion:
“This person understands pronouns, if everyone was like her then no one would use they are them to refer to one person.”
I’m not attacking pronoun users, I’m advocating for more efficient pronoun usage rather than arbitrarily requiring others to redefine their pronoun usage for every single individual that wants to use a different unique pronoun. Why, you ask? A pronoun is a shortened identifier than can be used in many different instances to represent a noun, in general, individual pronouns are a substitute for individual names.
Your name is the actually unique identifier more-so than any pronoun is or needs to be.
‘They/them’ has been used for singular people for centuries.
The Oxford English Dictionary traces singular they back to 1375, where it appears in the medieval romance William and the Werewolf. Except for the old-style language of that poem, its use of singular they to refer to an unnamed person seems very modern. Here’s the Middle English version: ‘Hastely hiȝed eche . . . þei neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.’ In modern English, that’s: ‘Each man hurried . . . till they drew near . . . where William and his darling were lying together.’
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true
Yes and languages evolve. I also worry that your same sort of historial logic can be used in favor of preserving gendered language and traditional gender definitions that is contrary to the goals here.
I’m arguing for a standard usage, he/her for everyone covers always having a singular standardized pronoun so that they/them can be used as plural pronouns without the potential confusion that you may be talking about more than one person in the same literal contextual frame of a discussion. Preciseness of language improves the quality of communication.
Even in that example, and perhaps the modern English translation is just incorrect in its wording, “Each man hurried… til they drew near” is still a plural representative form of usage, as ‘each man’ is an implied amount of more than a singular man.
To say “Each man hurried… til he drew near… where William and his darling were lying together” creates a confusion of singular subject and does not work since ‘each man’ and ‘they’ represents more than a single self identifying entity.
Cool. Good luck getting people to change language they’ve used for centuries because you want them to.
No, not cool. Languages do in fact change over time, regardless of what you or I may think, do or want.
I never demanded others conform to what I want, I argued in favor of an idea that has evolved over time from my own personal growth and life experiences, and it’s a suggestion that is certainly open for discussion.
This was shared as a thought out consideration meant to improve on existing language in several ways, including:
- as a compromise and simplified solution on pronoun gendering,
- more exactness when discussing single individuals or multiple individuals,
- and as a pronoun that is inclusive of everyone without having to talk down to people you disagree with.
I don’t know if you just constantly see red when you go to reply on certain thread topics, but not everything is or needs to be a reactionary agitative internet fight. Have a nice day.
You can argue your idea all you want, but language doesn’t change because someone has an idea that they think makes sense. That’s not how things work.
That’s exactly how things work.
Ideas affect change.
Not every idea brings change, but exploring new and different ideas is always worth pursuing.
Our entire civilization is built from, on, and around ideas put into actions.
That’s great. Good luck with your media campaign. Or did you plan to change the language by talking to me on Lemmy?
My question comes from a grammar /German background: We have four cases. They have different pronouns. Which ones should I list?
whichever one you feel is the most correct any any one time
Whichever ones you want English speakers to use when referring to you.
Simple, isn’t it?
Everything is simple when you know the solution.
I was not really expecting English speakers to use my German pronouns, they are for German speaking people.
Would that be the Dativ or Akkusativ form? They are both quite common and important
Yep, pretty much what UNY0N said. It is about the gender, not the pronouns per se. It is an English thing that they have gendered pronouns when mostly all other stuff in the language is (assumed not) gendered. Such meticulus discussion of pronouns detached from gender makes me wonder what your reaction would be if someone held a door open for you and then called you Fraulein. Would you feel misgendered then?
Lol, that happened already.
Okay, then you use whichever English pronoun you wish to use. Again, pretty simple. I really don’t think this is something you couldn’t have figured out for yourself just by spending time around English speakers or even just watching English-language media or listening to English-language music.
I have never met anyone in real life that doesn’t address you the way you ask them to. My language, however, does not have gender neutral pronouns so the “did you just assume X gender” question is kinda annoying.
Like this is a question that people ask and not a troll ragebait. People most positively misgender on purpose upon inspection that a person is trans. If a cis person says “but I am a boy” they will bend over apologizing.
Guarantee most of the people who argue about pronouns on the internet don’t even know a trans person.
and most decent transfolks don’t give a shit about prounouns. they just want to be left alone and stop being made into child raping monsters by politicans looking to scare up the voter base.
I mean… I care about pronouns, so do most of my trans friends, and I’d like to think we’re all “decent” trans folks. It sucks when someone misgenders you. I would also like the conservatives in my country to stop using trans rights as a wedge issue. I can care about both of these things at the same time.
I’d like people to stop screaming at me for misgendering them when I meant no ill-will. Just like I don’t scream at people when they ask me if I’m Italian or when they mispronounce my surname.
God forbid we don’t get pissed off at people for making mistakes, especially strangers.
Oh, you’re the same user who was lying in another comment thread about trans people beating you up in a coffee shop.
Ironic that you’re commenting about politicians making up stories about trans people to scare voters, seeing as you’re doing the same thing to win an argument on the Internet.
Nah, unlike you I’m capable of realize that trans people are people. Which means they are just as shitty as any other person.
