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Hm, good point, It seems I over complicated the whole process.

Thanks for sharing your post by the way, it’s very well written.

Good read, thanks for sharing. But i think both of us are over estimating the tech literacy of the average user. Many of them look at software, or ideas, or platforms at surface level, and don’t care much about how software works internally.

The average user isn’t going to care about federation, and might not even understand it. To us and the OP of the reddit thread, we’re familiar with federation, and have gotten used to it. It seems easy for us.

This is why i think the bluesky exodus is going to be useful, because it may inspire new users to learn about federation, and later on, the fediverse.

We definitely should make a poll to understand our demographics, eventually. Maybe i’ll do it one day. It would be a huge benefit for us users and developers.

As for reasons why people don’t choose to try lemmy, i remember before i joined lemmy that i heard warnings of the developers and community denying genocides, making up false information, and being toxic in general etc. I also couldn’t wrap my mind around instances. That definitely soured my opinion, to be honest. Of course, now i know those are only a couple of instances that could easily be blocked, but the average user isn’t going to understand instances, federation, etc.

The reason why bluesky was so successful was because it’s easy. It has pseudo-federation, but it ““conveniently”” chooses the main server for you. That’s why most users are on bsky.social. Simple, but incredibly centralized. It defeats the point. Also, the UI is very similar to old twitter. Lemmy/mbin are more radical in terms of differences, this makes it more niche.

I just don’t think people are ready for the fediverse, yet. Maybe in a couple of years, people will start joining us, but for now, we’re the minority.

Maybe not, but nowadays, most are. And you are correct, they believe in free markets and private property, with little regulation.

I should have specified, i was talking about classical liberalism. Social liberals are center-left to left wing.

The way i see it, the barebones definition of right wing and left wing is that leftism supports minimization, or abolishment of hierarchy, and equality, both class and social. You don’t have to be 100% of all these points to be left wing, just a degree of it.

The right wing believes that hierarchies are natural, and inevitable, or even desirable. They believe inequality is natural, due to social differences. Most of them believe that authority is good (not exclusive to right wing politics, there are authoritarian leftist ideologies) with libertarians and ancaps being an exception.

Classical liberals believe in free market, and generally have negative views on social services, taxes, and such.

Social liberals believe in a mixed economy, and favour social services, and believe in social justice (also class equality, but not a huge talking point for them). I think this makes them center, and at most, center-left (See social democracy or the nordic model). What makes them different than socialists and communists is that they are not quite radical in comparison to them, socialists desire to minimize wealth inequality (and inequality in general. politically, socially, etc) as much as possible.

Another point that you brought up is private property. I think this is also a defining factor on why I think liberals tend to be more right leaning.

You can still believe in markets, and be far left. Socialism, is when the workers own the means of production. It’s a pretty barebones definition, which makes it possible to have free markets, AND socialism. See Mutualism, Market Socialism, and Titoism

My intent was not to cause division, I originally meant to clear things up for the user I was originally replying to, but things quickly descended into arguing about semantics. I agree that we should all work together to eliminate the rising threat of far right, fascist parties worldwide. That is what we should be focusing on.

I’m tired over me bikeshedding, So i’m just going to forfeit out of this argument.

Have a great weekend

How could you improve something that is already perfect?

Anyways, outer worlds is also awesome, still a win

Seems that I am not as educated as you on liberalism. I focus more on socialist ideologies rather than liberalism or other ideologies, So I’ll give this one to you.

Have a great weekend :)

I wasn’t conflating. Conservatives are not liberals. But they are both right wing. (at least, classical liberals are)

And there is more than just class warfare, i agree.

But so what? why does it matter that they are right wing? not everyone has to be a communist.

The term left and right are very ambiguous to define in the first place. Some people argue that leftism is anti-capitalism. Some argue that leftism is just belief in equality. They are all right. Same thing with the right wing.

The whole left and right label is very ambiguous and hard for me to define. I agree liberalism is an umbrella term for a variety of political ideologies. I was mainly talking about classic liberalism, while it seems that you are talking about social liberalism. Social liberalism, at most, is center left. So is social democracy. I was mainly thinking about neoliberalism, and such.

Liberalism is against most things that the right wing of the political spectrum explicitly stands for

I’m assuming you’re talking in a US perspective.

Leftism describes a spectrum of political ideologies that seeks to minimize hierarchies and desires to achieve equality and egalitarianism. Liberalism is a pro-capitalist ideology, and capitalism is hierarchial and is unequal. Thus, liberalism is right wing. Progressivism isn’t related to right or left wing. You can be a communist but socially conservative. You can be fiscally conservative and be progressive. In the US, being left wing or right wing is mainly measured on how progressive, or if you support social programs (a little leftist, but still can be right wing, just center-right). Liberalism is right wing. Conservatism is far right.

Photon is amazing, and I use it daily. I love it. I’m sorry about the users in the comments that don’t understand what “subjective” means.

Thank you for all your work, and keep doing what you’re doing!

What’s the deal with loops? i have an account, and it’s buggy, uncomplete, and not even open source/federated (Yes, i know it will be) But why release it so early? it’s clearly unfinished.

Honestly, I can’t understand why people like compact mode instead of cards. Then again, I’ve always been bad at handling multiple information at once. To each his own, i guess

As for the statistics, those came from my own bias, but I see there are a lot of people that love the old lemmy UI, so it’s false. Sorry.

I’m pretty sure we agree at this point. My end point was that it is in the hands of the instance maintainers and Xylight (he has agreed) and that is what you are saying here, too.

Good, but slow

After your first post, i’ve thought about your points, and i’ve changed my opinions a little.

I agree, we should replace the default lemmy UI as a whole. Out with it. But photon wasn’t designed to be a “default” UI. It was designed as an alternative.

The point of a default UI is to be as accessible as possible, yet still functional. That’s why most users on the fediverse usually use a 3rd party client (Including me, i use photon + raccoon on mobile). While the current lemmy UI checks the “performance” box, the functionality box? not so much. It feels like everytime i use it i am overwhelmed with information density, and the auto expand feature implementation is just bad. Photon does the opposite. It checks the functionality box, but scratches the performance box. Even on a modern PC, photon is choppy for me, and the frosted glass effect is not helping.

I don’t think we should have a default lemmy UI, as in, every instance uses the same UI. As i said in the first post, it should be up to the instance maintainer to choose their own UI. This comes with its own problems. Lemmy.world’s photon is outdated, and so is lemdro.id.

Ultimately, this is in the hands of the instance maintainers, and Xylight himself. He is rewriting photon for more performance, so my answer may change.

In my country, and today, somehow, astonishingly, this combination makes me what most would call very left leaning.

Let me guess, the US? The only people i’ve ever heard call liberals something as BS as far-left communists are conservative americans. The overton window in america is so ridiculous it’s hilarious.

Absolutely yes. Anarchists on reddit were largely only anarchist by name, and we don’t even have a proper community here. And anarchist communities on instances such as lemmy.ml are even worse, to be honest. Most political representation on lemmy is for authoritarian leftists, where’s the love for anarchy :(

I agree. I should have specified, i meant left-libertarianism.